Lofrans Windless Motor Problem

[LMBoat]

Hello All,

I have a vertical mount Lofrans windless on my boat. It's similar in style to the Project 1000, but it is 14 years old. The problem was that it sometimes would not work when you hit the switch. You would hear the click, but it would not work. I re-did all the connections, no luck. I did find out that if I hit the motor with a screw driver while the switch was pushed, it would work. I removed the motor and took it to an elect motor shop. They did $140 worth of work and gave it back to me. I reinstalled it and now it works when I hit the switch, the problem is that after 30 seconds or so of running, it pops the breaker. I took the motor back to the shop, they say they can't reproduce the problem, it must be something with the boat.

Any ideas? Is there something special about reintalling the motor? It's only 2 bolts. Again, all the elect connections have been redone, battery is good, etc. I did not have this breaker popping issue before.

 

[Alegria]

Well if it runs for 30 seconds then the breaker trips, the breaker may be tripping on thermal overload. Feel the breaker with the back of you hand to see if it's hot. If its hot then it tripped under thermal over time.

As for the why... That one is tough. Easy answer is that the breaker needs to be replaced, if its orginal then that might be the problem. The re-winding of your motor may have just exposed the breaker issue.

If the breaker is OK then the motor is drawing more current then it was designed for in the breaker/protection scheme. For that to happen I am guessing more load on the motor due to something sticking in the Windlass... Does it operate easily by hand???

There the only two things that come to mind right now..

 

[Luckydogs]

I replaced my 40a breaker with a 50a breaker and have had no problems since

 

[wingless]

How much current is passing through the circuit?

A 40A load is 0.3 ohms at 12V and a 50A load is 0.24 ohms at 12V.

This is a very low resistance, but a nice multimeter can make this measurement after nulling the leads.

A DC clamp-on meter can make this measurement too.

 

[Henry Boyd]

Contact IMTRA (imtra.com) Get their phone number and call them. They are the US distributor of Lofrans. They are first rate and will help you out.

Having had a similar problem last summer, I have a thought. The Lofrans windlass utilizes what they call a control box. It is basically a set of solenoid driven relays. One side for up, the other for down. This set up allows for low current switches to control the high current needed to run the windlass under load. The clicking you are hearing may be the solenoid engaging the relay and the relay may have burned contacts. If the problem only happens in one direction, you can test the control box by swapping the up wire and the down wire on either the control box, or motor. If the no go problem is on the up side and after you swap wire it's on the down switch, the problem is a burned out control box. If the problem swaps directions as well then there is a fault with the motor.

Henry

 

[LMBoat]

The windless does work easily by hand. The breaker is 110 amp. I've already called Imtra. Very helpful. They are doing some research and are supposed to call me back tomorrow. They too suggested the control box and don't think it is the motor. I don't have the control box, just two seperate selenoids. My issue is that this did not happen before, why now? Is this just 2 seperate problems that happened to occure at the same time <motor issue, now a wiring issue>. I'm going to the boat tomorrow with my meters and see what I can determine.

 

[Henry Boyd]

Whether it is a control box, or two solenoids, the problem may just be a combination of age and usage. Every time you engage one of the switches there may be a momentary spark across the contacts on the high current side. With time the contacts begin to deteriorate and with it the ability to conduct electricity. This process can be accelerated if you begin to need to tap the switches. For example, if you begin having problems getting the chain onto the gypsy at the rope splice. Stopping and backing up and going forward again is the way most people deal with this issue. This results in arcing at the contacts.

 

[wingless]

Whether it is a control box, or two solenoids, the problem may just be a combination of age and usage. Every time you engage one of the switches there may be a momentary spark across the contacts on the high current side.

Close.

On an inductive load, like a motor, the arcing happens when the contacts open, not close.

A typical solution is to use snubber diodes across the contacts to prevent the arcing.

 

[fc3]

Close.

On an inductive load, like a motor, the arcing happens when the contacts open, not close.

A typical solution is to use snubber diodes across the contacts to prevent the arcing.

You mean "reactive" don't you?

Larry,
I think you have too much voltage drop in your circuit. You are going to have to measure the voltage drop all around the circuit with the windlass operating. For example, Put the + lead on the battery and the - lead of your multimeter on the windlass circuit breaker. Measure the voltage with the windlass operating. It should be very low. Leave the meter probe on the battery and try the other side of the breaker. Then keep moving towards the motor. If you don't find much of a voltage drop, do the same thing with the negative side. I'm betting you find somewhere with a drop of a couple of volts.

Best regards,
Frank C

 

[wingless]

You mean "reactive" don't you?

No.

A reactive load could lean inductive or capacitive.

A load that is more inductive, like a motor, will cause unprotected contacts to spark when opening the circuit.

 

[fc3]

No.

A reactive load could lean inductive or capacitive.

A load that is more inductive, like a motor, will cause unprotected contacts to spark when opening the circuit.

Umm. No. We're talking about DC motors. Inductance, reactance, and capacitance do not not apply to direct current. Those are properties of alternating current only. The spark noticed when a relay opens, for example, is reverse EMF. Current generated in the winding when the stable magnetic field collapses.

 

[PMvdb395DA]

 

[wingless]

Whether it is a control box, or two solenoids, the problem may just be a combination of age and usage. Every time you engage one of the switches there may be a momentary spark across the contacts on the high current side.

Close.

On an inductive load, like a motor, the arcing happens when the contacts open, not close.

A typical solution is to use snubber diodes across the contacts to prevent the arcing.

You mean "reactive" don't you?

No.

A reactive load could lean inductive or capacitive.

A load that is more inductive, like a motor, will cause unprotected contacts to spark when opening the circuit.

Umm. No. We're talking about DC motors. Inductance, reactance, and capacitance do not not apply to direct current. Those are properties of alternating current only. The spark noticed when a relay opens, for example, is reverse EMF. Current generated in the winding when the stable magnetic field collapses.

Wow!

As shown, the question was contact arcing.

These links confirm the information I presented, inductance in a DC circuit may cause arcing on unprotected contacts when the switch is opened.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_3/9.html

http://www.ngsir.netfirms.com/englishhtm/RL.htm

 

[fc3]

Wow!
As shown, the question was contact arcing.

These links confirm the information I presented, inductance in a DC circuit may cause arcing on unprotected contacts when the switch is opened.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_3/9.html

http://www.ngsir.netfirms.com/englishhtm/RL.htm

There is no inductance in D.C. circuit. Consider all the dolts on the Internet, you can find a half-assed reference for anything, including direct current inductance, ternary encoded anchor rodes, and non-ignition protected equipment in the engine room of a gasoline powered boat. Just because some fool posts something does not mean it's true, good, or correct.

 

[wingless]

There is no inductance in D.C. circuit.

Could you please provide another reference, from another dolt, that supports the incorrect information you are providing?

Or, refute the correct information I've provided...

 

[LMBoat]

Update: I took the motor back to the repair place. They checked it out and said it was fine. They could not reproduce the problem. I picked it up and took it back to the boat and reinstalled. For whatever reason, it now works flawlessly. And the motor sounds normal. <last time it had a higher pitch>. Not sure what happened, I installed and wired it exactly as before.

 

[fc3]

Could you please provide another reference, from another dolt, that supports the incorrect information you are providing?

Or, refute the correct information I've provided...

It's common knowledge to every EE.

Update: I took the motor back to the repair place. They checked it out and said it was fine. They could not reproduce the problem. I picked it up and took it back to the boat and reinstalled. For whatever reason, it now works flawlessly. And the motor sounds normal. <last time it had a higher pitch>. Not sure what happened, I installed and wired it exactly as before.

Glad you got it work, Larry. Maybe they did something when they bench tested it.

 

[wingless]

You mean "reactive" don't you?

We're talking about DC motors. Inductance, reactance, and capacitance do not not apply to direct current. Those are properties of alternating current only.

There is no inductance in D.C. circuit.

Could you please provide another reference, from another dolt, that supports the incorrect information you are providing?

Or, refute the correct information I've provided...

It's common knowledge to every EE.

Forgive me for concluding you are an uncommon EE.

Isn't there another on-line dolt available to cite that supports your drivel?

 

[mawyatt]

Practically there is no such thing as DC, as this would imply the same current/voltage for all time without change. Inductance by defination is the property of a circuit by which and electromotive force is induced by a variation in current. We EEs use DC as a simplified means to analyise circuits and can replace inductors (elements that have inductance) by short circuits and capacitors (elements that have capacitance) by open circuits in an attempt to make the circuit/analysis simplier. When the switch is closed (turn on for example) we have violated the terms of DC, and when the switch is opened (turn off for example) we have also violated the terms of DC. In this discussion the inductance comes into play when we attempt interrupt (change) the current by opening the switch, the inductance will create a voltage arcoss the switch contacts in an attempt to keep the current flowing thus opposing the change in current. This is the arc we see and the arc that errodes the switch contacts. The arc dissipates the stored inductive energy (1/2L I^2) and then the current becomes zero and we can treat the circuit without regard to inductance because the current is not changing (it's zero!). As soon as the current changes again we are no longer in the fictitious DC state and inducatnce comes into play.

 

[arifaat]

I own a Sea Ray 310
The windlass is a Lofrans Progress on
It does not have a gipsy..(it is low profile)
Is there a way to modify it by adding a gipsy since i need it for anchoring with rope...
??