Calling all canvas people....Let's have an honest discussion....

Scott1 said:
Ive been in the canvas biz for almost 12 yrs. Id say most people have no idea the labor hrs it takes to fabricate a top, sides, curtains, you name it. Nothing is straight, plenty of unique attachment points, and fabric boat components have to be finished perfect. You would accept nothing less on your expensive boat. You also can have dry fits, test time, etc. Cost on SeaMark is about $33 yrd. Cost on O'Sea or some comparable polished window is close to $250 per 110 x 54 panel. Do the math with labor and mark up. Spendy.
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I do my own work, so I'm aware of the time it takes.

My cost on O'Sea is $186 per 110x54. SeaMark runs anywhere from $30-$35/yard, of course if I buy in quantity the prices drop (to about $25/yard)

I would assume if this is your business you are able to buy at wholesale? I don't buy wholesale, but have found a few vendors that give good prices.
 
Re: a lot of discussions (arguments) here about what labor costs should be. From those "canvas guys" I know, most of them are 1x man shows. Sometimes they'll have a part time office assistant.

For a small business up in our area (the crazy high tax state of CT)....most hourly rates for onsites start at around 75 bucks an hour for rather basic skills...and factoring in 1x way travel at the minimum.

Business expenses alone have really skyrocketed in the past 5 and less years.

The canvas guy that dominates our area is generally booked almost year out. Emergencies can be quick, otherwise...can be near a year til your order comes.
 
I see nothing wrong with wanting value for money spent. I do question a business when they give me a price quote, a extremely high one, and their answer is "that's what we charge". I say thanks, and move on.
 
CaptRonn said:
I do my own work, so I'm aware of the time it takes.

My cost on O'Sea is $186 per 110x54. SeaMark runs anywhere from $30-$35/yard, of course if I buy in quantity the prices drop (to about $25/yard)

I would assume if this is your business you are able to buy at wholesale? I don't buy wholesale, but have found a few vendors that give good prices.
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Of course prices go down if you buy more quantity......but then you are financing stock material/colors that may or may not get used in reasonable time. We don't do boat or marine work (architectural/structural/signage) but i imagine the seasonal aspect of the work is a major factor in purchasing stock at a discount, not to mention a market on a coast probably has more than a few colors/types of fabric used. Could be a big gamble to save a few dollars a yard. I simply cannot justify buying stock of almost any fabric since we use so many different kinds and colors.
 
CaptRonn said:
I see nothing wrong with wanting value for money spent. I do question a business when they give me a price quote, a extremely high one, and their answer is "that's what we charge". I say thanks, and move on.
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Thats the free market for ya. More than likely the higher priced guys have correctly realized the value of their time and resources. My industry is always host to startups and mom/pop shops that think they can come in and be the cheapest. All they do is stay in biz for a short time, make no money to live on/pay wages/invest, and give the customers false expectations that quotes are very cheap. They go out of biz and do no favors to the customers or the industry. Dont get me started on the impact of illegal/foreign labor.
 
Scott1 said:
Of course prices go down if you buy more quantity......but then you are financing stock material/colors that may or may not get used in reasonable time. We don't do boat or marine work (architectural/structural/signage) but i imagine the seasonal aspect of the work is a major factor in purchasing stock at a discount, not to mention a market on a coast probably has more than a few colors/types of fabric used. Could be a big gamble to save a few dollars a yard. I simply cannot justify buying stock of almost any fabric since we use so many different kinds and colors.
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So you don't do marine or boat canvas? OK.

I buy my material at retail. You are in the canvas business, and you quoted prices for material at substantially above retail. An established boat canvas shop will buy at wholesale as they buy much more quantity throughout the year.

Again, it's up to each business to charge what they feel will get them business. And it's up to the customers to decide what they are willing to pay.
 
CaptRonn said:
So you don't do marine or boat canvas? OK.

I buy my material at retail. You are in the canvas business, and you quoted prices for material at substantially above retail. An established boat canvas shop will buy at wholesale as they buy much more quantity throughout the year.

Again, it's up to each business to charge what they feel will get them business. And it's up to the customers to decide what they are willing to pay.
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I figured low quantity cut yardage of burgundy seamark.....so worst case. Anything redish is usually a premium. Blues/Grays/Greens/Tans are more like $26yrd at full roll price + ship & tax. Those are my prices from Trivantage. Not sure where you buy from, but retail is all over the place and usually $40+. Same with O'Sea. It comes in cut drums (as you know)....so i figured 3 per. Again, worst case. As a fabricator, i would be charging you 2X or more. With anything fabric, labor is usually the big one. And boat tops have A LOT of finishing required to look good. If i knew that i would go through several rolls a month of one thing or another, im sure i could get a little better pricing(wont be much)....but net 30 terms are the norm and i would have to use it and get paid fast! We have access to 2nds from time to time, but you have to buy a lot and more often than not it sits. Best not to craft your business around those prices.
 
Scott1 said:
I figured low quantity cut yardage of burgundy seamark.....so worst case. Anything redish is usually a premium. Blues/Grays/Greens/Tans are more like $26yrd at full roll price + ship & tax. Those are my prices from Trivantage. Not sure where you buy from, but retail is all over the place and usually $40+. Same with O'Sea. It comes in cut drums (as you know)....so i figured 3 per. Again, worst case. As a fabricator, i would be charging you 2X or more. With anything fabric, labor is usually the big one. And boat tops have A LOT of finishing required to look good. If i knew that i would go through several rolls a month of one thing or another, im sure i could get a little better pricing(wont be much)....but net 30 terms are the norm and i would have to use it and get paid fast! We have access to 2nds from time to time, but you have to buy a lot and more often than not it sits. Best not to craft your business around those prices.
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I've been using Sailrite for most of my material.
 
I just got my canvas installed, thought I would chime back in here with an update. I didn't go with a big shop, the guy that I have used in the past, and a lot of my boating friends have as well, is a mom and pop shop. It's literally a guy and his wife that do everything. I think he said he works in a big shop during the day doing upholstery and canvas and does his own thing on the side.

I had all of my camper canvas replaced, as well as upgraded from eisenglass to Makrolon everywhere. My previous canvas had to be rolled up to get it out of the way to get on the boat, which just destroyed the glass. For this install, I had him put sliding tracks on so that the glass sections could be slid back and forth out of the way, or just plain removed. He's also building storage bags for the sections so that we can remove them and safely store them without damaging the glass.

All told, the canvas cost me $8800, and I threw him another $200 for the storage bags. For the amount of canvas and glass, plus the time spent - It was just over 2 weeks from start to finish, with at least 3 trips (that I know of) to the boat for fit and adjustments - I think it was a great deal. There is no way I could have even come close to the quality of what he did. Experience counts here, and I am more than happy to pay for getting a high quality product. Now I just need to maintain it to make it last!

A few pics of the installation:

Full camper canvas from inside:
Camper Canvas complete-sm.jpg

Helm windows:
Front Windows.jpg

Helm windows outside:
Front outside.jpg

Outside view:
Side.jpg

Fold up rear window:
Fold up glass.jpg
 
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Not to underestimate it but I have found that the materials cost is almost negligible compared to the labor costs which is where most of the inherent value comes from.

To those looking for the lowest cost and have some time there is nothing better and more rewarding than completing your projects. For those not wanting to sacrifice time to learn how to do something or perfect the practice the returned value comes from enjoying the labors that some one has provided - regardless of cost.

To each client there is a different value system. Some clients want the $1 menu - some want a 5-Star custom chef prepared dinner and are willing to pay. Please just don't have the chef put the $1 meal burgers on a plate and charge a premium.

-Kevin
 
GnrlPatton said:
I just got my canvas installed, thought I would chime back in here with an update. I didn't go with a big shop, the guy that I have used in the past, and a lot of my boating friends have as well, is a mom and pop shop. It's literally a guy and his wife that do everything. I think he said he works in a big shop during the day doing upholstery and canvas and does his own thing on the side.

I had all of my camper canvas replaced, as well as upgraded from eisenglass to Makrolon everywhere. My previous canvas had to be rolled up to get it out of the way to get on the boat, which just destroyed the glass. For this install, I had him put sliding tracks on so that the glass sections could be slid back and forth out of the way, or just plain removed. He's also building storage bags for the sections so that we can remove them and safely store them without damaging the glass.

All told, the canvas cost me $8800, and I threw him another $200 for the storage bags. For the amount of canvas and glass, plus the time spent - It was just over 2 weeks from start to finish, with at least 3 trips (that I know of) to the boat for fit and adjustments - I think it was a great deal. There is no way I could have even come close to the quality of what he did. Experience counts here, and I am more than happy to pay for getting a high quality product. Now I just need to maintain it to make it last!

A few pics of the installation:

Full camper canvas from inside:
View attachment 72869

Helm windows:
View attachment 72870

Helm windows outside:
View attachment 72871

Outside view:
View attachment 72872

Fold up rear window:
View attachment 72873
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Awesome looking job - you should be happy and enjoy it for a long time.

-Kevin
 
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GnrlPatton said:
I just got my canvas installed,..... For this install, I had him put sliding tracks on so that the glass sections could be slid back and forth out of the way, or just plain removed....... Now I just need to maintain it to make it last!
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Thanks for the update...It looks nice... Do you have a pict or could you explain better the "sliding tracks"?

Also, this is a '98 370? I guess you had the fiberglass top made into the arch?
 
CaptRonn said:
I've been using Sailrite for most of my material.
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Looks like good prices there. Im sure they buy massive quantities from glen raven at a great price....enough that they can compete with the in house supplier for glen raven in the retail market. If you are attempting to fabricate on your own....good on ya. Obviously you can save a "boat load." ;)
 
Boat Guy said:
Thanks for the update...It looks nice... Do you have a pict or could you explain better the "sliding tracks"?

Also, this is a '98 370? I guess you had the fiberglass top made into the arch?
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The track is just visible in the first pic - the white rails at the top of the side and back windows. They are plastic, triangular shaped and have 3 grooves in them. The top groove slides on to the bottom of the canvas, and then the side windows slide into the other 2 tracks. I'll get a better picture of it when I'm at the boat tonight.

It is a '98 370EC, and that's a factory hard top. It was one of my requirements when searching for the boat, since having the hard top here in Seattle opens me up to year round boating. It does an awesome job of keeping us warm and dry when it's pouring rain out. Which happens a lot. :)

Kevin
 
The timing of this thread couldn't be more interesting for me. When the thread started I had just finished installing floor runners and a helm cover that I sewed myself this spring using a Sailrite sewing machine. Today I signed the work order for new canvas (full canvas) which should be installed in the next few weeks.

I'm paying $90 an hour for labor. When I look at the total labor hours quoted I can confidently say I'd easily take 3-4X the amount of time to get a product that could be "installed" if I did it myself. And that product would be far, far from perfect, 80% chance I'd hate it. Might not even be water tight :)
 
Stee6043 said:
...I'm paying $90 an hour for labor. When I look at the total labor hours quoted I can confidently say I'd easily take 3-4X the amount of time to get a product that could be "installed" if I did it myself..... And that product would be far, far from perfect, 80% chance I'd hate it. Might not even be water tight :)
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Do you mind sharing the labor hours quoted?
 
Boat Guy said:
Thanks guys for taking the time to give your thoughts... So look for a servo motor...Got it... 120V for sure...

I'll look at those machines. I obviously know about the Sailrite and I looked at their video last night about the "lookalikes", though I'm not convinced there is much difference.

This machine was recommended and I was thinking of pulling the trigger, but it doesn't say servo motor. I'm speculating that the new machines all have servos? It's only the used old machines to be concerned about?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/232059984708?ul_noapp=true&autorefresh=true

EDIT:

I called https://walking-foot.ca/about/ who sells the machine on ebay and he told me it's not a servo motor, nor is the Sailrite...So I'm a bit confused. --Rereading what you are saying, I guess a clutch motor is constantly on (makes sense) and engages a clutch when sewing. Though a servo motor he said was industrial and too heavy for reasonable shipping. He suggested buying locally....I'm guessing for my purposes the 1.5A motor on this machine will be fine.
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FYI I bought that Omega machine this past winter and used it to make new cushions for my boat.

It is a great machine and very strong. I had no issues sewing through the vinyl and piping, which is very thick in some spots.

if You chose to buy it, you will have to regrets.
 
Espos4 said:
FYI I bought that Omega machine this past winter and used it to make new cushions for my boat.

It is a great machine and very strong. I had no issues sewing through the vinyl and piping, which is very thick in some spots.

if You chose to buy it, you will have to regrets.
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I have an Omega, very pleased with it.
 
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