410 Sundancer/Express Cruiser and 400 Sundancer/Express Cruiser **Official Thread**

[GnrlPatton]

I've been quite pleased with my "2.0 version" of tie downs this year. My dink moved way too much last year.

I added three padeyes to the red spots below over winter and it's now all I'm using:

View attachment 132118

I run 5 ratchet straps. I don't know how well you can see it below but I have both transom bolts strapped to the starboard-most padeye. I have the bow eye strapped to the port-most padeye. I then run two longer straps to the center(ish) padeye. One from the dink's starboard side transom bolt (over the transom and under the tube) and the other from the bow ring.

Works like a champ.
View attachment 132119

That's what I'm doing, a tie down that handles the dinghy bow ring and then another for both the transom mounts. One more that is mid-dinghy, with ratchet straps crossed and going to the inner tie downs in the bow and transom of the dinghy.

I found a potential solution for the bow and stern tie downs that I'm going to try out this week, it will clamp on to the lip of the swim platform, and then has a ring eye that I'm attaching the ratchet straps to. I tested it out last night and it seems to work before I really clamped it down, so I'll install and put it through its' paces before I take it on the long trip.

 

[Strecker25]

I'll take a pic of mine but I did 5 just as hurley recommends and it is rock solid. the two inner tube ties go to flush mounted pad-eyes and the bow/transom ones go to pad-eyes on the outer edge of the platform like in this picture. All of them are through bolted and have a starboard backing plate. It didn't move at all even with some following waves running up on me over the weekend

 

[GnrlPatton]

I'll take a pic of mine but I did 5 just as hurley recommends and it is rock solid. the two inner tube ties go to flush mounted pad-eyes and the bow/transom ones go to pad-eyes on the outer edge of the platform like in this picture. All of them are through bolted and have a starboard backing plate. It didn't move at all even with some following waves running up on me over the weekend

View attachment 132167

Yep, I will have the 5 spots tied down, 2 over the forward most tube, one at the bow eye and then one on each transom eye. Good to hear that it worked well for you, especially with the extension. That definitely throws a wrinkle in because everything except for the aft most transom tie down isn't applying force to keep the aft tube down (when hitting following waves or coming off plane for example).

 

[Stee6043]

Spotted Stee6043 and Carver 370 in Elk Rapids last week and both have beautiful 400's. Briefly met Stee6043 as he came in on my slip neighbor's boat just long enough to say hello. Wish I had more time to socialize. I would agree that he gets a lot of use from his tender as I watched him being chauffeured around the harbor by his personal captain on several occasions. Surprising the water cops with your tender captain's(son's) boaters safety cert when they decided to harass you the night of the fireworks was priceless.

It was nice meeting you last week. Don is a great guy.

Man...the more I thought about that whole experience the more bummed I became. The first words out of that officers mouth were "HEY, HE CAN'T BE DRIVING THAT BOAT". Lights and sirens even!!! Geeze. What a missed opportunity for that officer to engage civilly with a group of impressionable kids.

Oiy. But my son nailed it. Before they grabbed our dinghy I told him "hey, you're doing everything 100% right. You have absolutely nothing to worry about. This will be good stuff".

When we got tied back up to the Sea Ray my son asked my wife and I "hey, how old were you guys when you got pulled over the first time". We all laughed pretty good at that. New family record set @ 12 years old. He's got a heck of a story to tell when he goes back to school next week.

 

[Stee6043]

I'll take a pic of mine but I did 5 just as hurley recommends and it is rock solid. the two inner tube ties go to flush mounted pad-eyes and the bow/transom ones go to pad-eyes on the outer edge of the platform like in this picture. All of them are through bolted and have a starboard backing plate. It didn't move at all even with some following waves running up on me over the weekend

View attachment 132167

This is what I intended to do with mine but it turns out to be impossible with the Hurley extension. There's too much forward angle on the straps going port/starboard to keep it from moving all over the place. You gotta get some crossing action going or it's pure pain...

 

[Strecker25]

This is what I intended to do with mine but it turns out to be impossible with the Hurley extension. There's too much forward angle on the straps going port/starboard to keep it from moving all over the place. You gotta get some crossing action going or it's pure pain...

ah yeah, sorry guys this is with an H20 and no extension which is a very different system, my dinghy centerline is over the platform. I missed that part of the discussion..

 

[Dani-Lu]

Need help with replacing nav Side lights! I am replacing my starboard side light, but no power from wires. I have a feeling it’s disconnected below where it is mounted. Also, replacing my port Side light, which does have power, but very short wire, so would like to access the wires below this one too. Does anyone know how to gain access below the lights? How to remove the ceiling sections? Thanks

 

[Riptide III]

My angled panels just pulled out. There were clips you have a newer boat so I am not sure

 

[gmaki]

So his a little update on my recent purchase of a 2002 410DA. As mentioned prior, an oil leak on the recently rebuilt port engine was discovered during the sea trial. Leak was reported as fixed.

This has turned into a bit of a saga unfortunately.

I finally got a captain to transport the boat from Dana Point to Oxnard, but about an hour into the 100 mile journey he checked the engines and once again... oil leak, port side. He shut down the port engine and made the rest of the trip uneventfully on the starboard motor alone.

Well, I had the mechanic (same co that did the rebuild for previous owner) back out to look at the boat and he now states that the new turbo has a bad seal and will need to be replaced. The good news is they are taking responsibility and replacing with a new turbo at no charge. I just have to wait for parts and install. No such a big deal as I have plenty to do on the boat to get it (and myself) ready anyway.

The not so good news is that he informed me that the prevailing opinion as to why the port engine and/or turbo failed in the first place was that it had ingested salt water through the air intake. The theory was that perhaps a hose was leaking right above the port air cleaner and spraying salt water directly onto it.

Supporting that theory is the fact the those hoses were in fact damp, and the portion of the block surrounding that air cleaner had more rust than other areas of the engine and more than the same location on the starboard engine.

Given all that, this seemed to make sense to me at the time but as time goes on and research the issue, and speak to more knowledgeable people than myself I am starting to doubt that theory. Looking at a schematic it appears to me that those hoses carry fresh water and not salt water. So where would it have come from?

Any way I am going to try to post a couple photos to illustrate what I am talking about. Obviously I want to clearly understand this issue and be 100% comfortable that it has been resolved before running the engines or taking the boat out.

First photo is the port engine, second (very clean) is the starboard engine.

 

[Riptide III]

I don’t have any hoses near the air sep that carry salt water. The back cap of the heat exchanger or even more likely would possibly be exhaust leak between rubber hose and fiberglass pipe. Seems unlikely.

 

[Strecker25]

So his a little update on my recent purchase of a 2002 410DA. As mentioned prior, an oil leak on the recently rebuilt port engine was discovered during the sea trial. Leak was reported as fixed.

This has turned into a bit of a saga unfortunately.

I finally got a captain to transport the boat from Dana Point to Oxnard, but about an hour into the 100 mile journey he checked the engines and once again... oil leak, port side. He shut down the port engine and made the rest of the trip uneventfully on the starboard motor alone.

Well, I had the mechanic (same co that did the rebuild for previous owner) back out to look at the boat and he now states that the new turbo has a bad seal and will need to be replaced. The good news is they are taking responsibility and replacing with a new turbo at no charge. I just have to wait for parts and install. No such a big deal as I have plenty to do on the boat to get it (and myself) ready anyway.

The not so good news is that he informed me that the prevailing opinion as to why the port engine and/or turbo failed in the first place was that it had ingested salt water through the air intake. The theory was that perhaps a hose was leaking right above the port air cleaner and spraying salt water directly onto it.

Supporting that theory is the fact the those hoses were in fact damp, and the portion of the block surrounding that air cleaner had more rust than other areas of the engine and more than the same location on the starboard engine.

Given all that, this seemed to make sense to me at the time but as time goes on and research the issue, and speak to more knowledgeable people than myself I am starting to doubt that theory. Looking at a schematic it appears to me that those hoses carry fresh water and not salt water. So where would it have come from?

Any way I am going to try to post a couple photos to illustrate what I am talking about. Obviously I want to clearly understand this issue and be 100% comfortable that it has been resolved before running the engines or taking the boat out.

First photo is the port engine, second (very clean) is the starboard engine.

View attachment 132852 View attachment 132853

those hoses are do not carry water, they are very likely your fuel hoses to that engine, supply and return.

not to say salt water couldn’t make it there, but I don’t think it’s from those hoses. Any water accumulation in the bilge? Enough of a water leak to trash a turbo would certainly build up somewhere

good news is that the turbo R&R is easy. Did he say which seal is bad? The common one is the oil return gasket for the pipe that dumps the oil back to the pan. That one is easy and doesn’t even require the turbo be removed. If it’s the turbo shaft seal that’s a different story, but the engine would have been ingesting oil through the compressor during the trip (likely blowing blue smoke out the exhaust) and would be obvious around the compressor housing where it would likely be oozing out.

who rebuilt the turbo in the first place or was it original and bolted back up?

point is, if it’s part of the turbo once they replace it you don’t necessarily have another lingering problem.

 

[gmaki]

Well there is a lot of oil in the bilge. How much if it is water I do not know. But it is very thick so it is mostly oil.

The company that rebuilt the engine is the same company that diagnosed the issue. The turbo is brand new, and they have ordered a brand new replacement for it. So there will be no rebuilding it. I don't know that much about turbos but he said it was bad and needed to be replaced.

If I read the schematic correctly there is fresh water in at least some of those hoses, but no salt water. The only other place I could see where salt water to get in is around the hatch seal itself. I did notice that the rubber gasket was loose in that corner. But that just seems unlikely because it would mean a wave would have to nearly swamp the cockpit to get through.

 

[Strecker25]

Well there is a lot of oil in the bilge. How much if it is water I do not know. But it is very thick so it is mostly oil.

The company that rebuilt the engine is the same company that diagnosed the issue. The turbo is brand new, and they have ordered a brand new replacement for it. So there will be no rebuilding it. I don't know that much about turbos but he said it was bad and needed to be replaced.

If I read the schematic correctly there is fresh water in at least some of those hoses, but no salt water. The only other place I could see where salt water to get in is around the hatch seal itself. I did notice that the rubber gasket was loose in that corner. But that just seems unlikely because it would mean a wave would have to nearly swamp the cockpit to get through.

agreed, I can’t see raw water coming from anywhere but the engine cooling system itself.

I’ll look at ours tomorrow, I thought those were all fuel and I know the freshwater system is all mounted to the transom wall (and is all pex) but maybe one of those hoses also carried water that I missed.

 

[ttmott]

Count me suspicious also.
First, I can't see how a failed turbocharger shaft seal can dump five or six gallons of oil into the boat's bilge in a couple of hours. Defies logic. A failed, completely failed, drain-back line possibly.
How in the world did the oil get from the turbocharger bearing carrier to the bilge? Through the air filter? As said, that much oil on the compressor side would make the boat smoke horribly and stall the turbocharger causing noticeable loss of engine performance.
Did the survey do a blow-by test on the engine?
Is there oil all over that side of the engine?
Regarding the corrosion - there are things that can spray raw water up into that area but it would show all over the engine compartment. If the corrosion is isolated as shown in the picture then it is the deck hatch seal which, if I remember correctly, is right above that area.
Regardless, it's great the rebuilder is standing by his work even with a different owner.

 

[gmaki]

A friend (who happens to be a mechanic for the city, and has worked on the same engine [In school buses apparently]) and I, found oil on the left side of the block. We also found it on the bottom of the turbo and at the time he theorized the turbo was the likely source. We did not run the engine because a) it was near the low side on oil and b) we knew the mechanic was coming and did not want to do anything that would give them cause to void the warranty. But there was oil on the left side of the engine and the inside of the hull in the same area which then ran down into the bilge.

When the mechanic arrived and tested it we added 4 quarts (it could have taken 5).

I do not believe there was a blow by test done during the survey.

and yes that corrosion is right below the deck hatch seal, as a matter of fact, it is near a corner of the hatch where two ends of the seal come together. Each of those ends are starting to detach from the hatch as well. Again only in that area. But it is still hard for me to imagine that area being covered in salt water that often.

 

[Strecker25]

A friend (who happens to be a mechanic for the city, and has worked on the same engine [In school buses apparently]) and I, found oil on the left side of the block. We also found it on the bottom of the turbo and at the time he theorized the turbo was the likely source. We did not run the engine because a) it was near the low side on oil and b) we knew the mechanic was coming and did not want to do anything that would give them cause to void the warranty. But there was oil on the left side of the engine and the inside of the hull in the same area which then ran down into the bilge.

When the mechanic arrived and tested it we added 4 quarts (it could have taken 5).

I do not believe there was a blow by test done during the survey.

and yes that corrosion is right below the deck hatch seal, as a matter of fact, it is near a corner of the hatch where two ends of the seal come together. Each of those ends are starting to detach from the hatch as well. Again only in that area. But it is still hard for me to imagine that area being covered in salt water that often.

im with you, maybe when people are swimming or otherwise in and out. The other weak point of the drain system is the hatch drain through hull, it’s near the waterline and if it’s rough out the sea water can back up the hose and potentially leak in the bilge, I think those are also close to that area

I still don’t think you’d be taking on enough seawater to trash an engine but none of that matters if the guy is covering you!

 

[gmaki]

I still don’t think you’d be taking on enough seawater to trash an engine but none of that matters if the guy is covering you!

I agree, however my concern is that if there actually is/was an issue with salt water intrusion I need to know it has been resolved before I start using the boat.

 

[ttmott]

im with you, maybe when people are swimming or otherwise in and out. The other weak point of the drain system is the hatch drain through hull, it’s near the waterline and if it’s rough out the sea water can back up the hose and potentially leak in the bilge, I think those are also close to that area

I still don’t think you’d be taking on enough seawater to trash an engine but none of that matters if the guy is covering you!

I've taken blue water over the bow more than once and a veritable river flowed back into the cockpit. Winds blow salt spray all over the boat including the cockpit and down to those gutter drains. Running in the ocean will have a spray that actually blows backwards into the cockpit. I was having some of the same corrosion on my engine on the 400DA and found it was two things - one that hatch gasket and two that aluminum bar on the starboard side of the hatch wasn't sealed to the boat at the ends. I can assure you seawater can get through that hatch.

 

[gmaki]

Count me suspicious also.
First, I can't see how a failed turbocharger shaft seal can dump five or six gallons of oil into the boat's bilge in a couple of hours. Defies logic. A failed, completely failed, drain-back line possibly.
How in the world did the oil get from the turbocharger bearing carrier to the bilge? Through the air filter? As said, that much oil on the compressor side would make the boat smoke horribly and stall the turbocharger causing noticeable loss of engine performance.
Did the survey do a blow-by test on the engine?
Is there oil all over that side of the engine?
Regarding the corrosion - there are things that can spray raw water up into that area but it would show all over the engine compartment. If the corrosion is isolated as shown in the picture then it is the deck hatch seal which, if I remember correctly, is right above that area.
Regardless, it's great the rebuilder is standing by his work even with a different owner.

ttomott, starting to look like you were right on the money here. I got another opinion today from another mechanic who said almost exactly what you said above. After looking at the turbo side with the engine running he is nearly certain it is the oil return line. His theory is that the O-ring is either pinched or compromised in some way, and also made the same comment that I would have tons of blue smoke if the turbo itself had failed.

This really puts me in a frustrating position as the rebuilder wants to replace the entire turbo, which I don't want to do unnecessarily even if I am not paying for it. Plus, do I really want this guy working on the engine who is at best incompetent and at worst dishonest.

 

[Strecker25]

ttomott, starting to look like you were right on the money here. I got another opinion today from another mechanic who said almost exactly what you said above. After looking at the turbo side with the engine running he is nearly certain it is the oil return line. His theory is that the O-ring is either pinched or compromised in some way, and also made the same comment that I would have tons of blue smoke if the turbo itself had failed.

This really puts me in a frustrating position as the rebuilder wants to replace the entire turbo, which I don't want to do unnecessarily even if I am not paying for it. Plus, do I really want this guy working on the engine who is at best incompetent and at worst dishonest.

well, the return tube is about a 15 minute job with hand tools if he has the gasket and O ring. It could also be the two bolts holding it to the turbo are simply loose. They’re easier to put in loose and leave the tube hanging while installing the turbo then tightening them up after it’s in place.

I’d take a look yourself first, clean up that are and check those bolts and the bolts going into the block to see if they’re loose. Once you verify that ask the mechanic to remove, clean, and reinstall the tube before he goes yanking the turbo