410 Sundancer/Express Cruiser and 400 Sundancer/Express Cruiser **Official Thread**

[Carver370]

So what did you find? I was going to suggest cutting the glass away forward of, and below the hinge and scrape out the rot, replace with marine ply and/or epoxy or something. The nice thing is that you can make a mess of the underside of your platform and nobody will ever notice

Took a look over the weekend. It is indeed just a piece of wood behind the hinge which has rotted enough to the point that only one screw will take a bite.

I haven't decided exactly how I am going to tackle it but here are my thoughts.

I am going back and forth on either drilling a few strategic holes from the back side under the platform and dig out as much as I can, then fill with epoxy and re-drill new holes so I can through bolt the hinge to the platform.

The other option is cutting the bottom side off where the piece is laid in place , digging out all of the wood, cut a new piece of wood, epoxy it in place and then re-glass the bottom side.

I'm reluctant to put too much effort into this since I know I have a couple of places my platform is going to need other work done, I may end up just getting an entire extended platform from Swimplatforms.com.

 

[Stee6043]

I'm reluctant to put too much effort into this since I know I have a couple of places my platform is going to need other work done, I may end up just getting an entire extended platform from Swimplatforms.com.

I don't know how busy they are these days but in 2021 I ordered in December for a March/April delivery. Get on their list early if you think you want one!

 

[Chris L]

Took a look over the weekend. It is indeed just a piece of wood behind the hinge which has rotted enough to the point that only one screw will take a bite.

I haven't decided exactly how I am going to tackle it but here are my thoughts.

I am going back and forth on either drilling a few strategic holes from the back side under the platform and dig out as much as I can, then fill with epoxy and re-drill new holes so I can through bolt the hinge to the platform.

The other option is cutting the bottom side off where the piece is laid in place , digging out all of the wood, cut a new piece of wood, epoxy it in place and then re-glass the bottom side.

I'm reluctant to put too much effort into this since I know I have a couple of places my platform is going to need other work done, I may end up just getting an entire extended platform from Swimplatforms.com.

I don't blame you for not wanting to any more effort than absolutely necessary. I would first over drill the holes and see what the condition of the wood shavings that come out are. Are they relatively dry? wet? Mushy brown? etc. Is mushy brown liquid coming out of the holes which would indicate a rotten core.That should guide you into whether or not you have to take on the extra effort to remove and replace the wood.

You may get lucky in that the screws worked themselves out over time due to constant use rather than rotten wood.

 

[Maybe A Dancer]

Hey Ray,

Lots has been written about the use of GORILLA GLUE in this type of situation.

This product kicks off when it reacts to water.

It NEEDS water to expand and get hard.

Had a similar issue with my swim platform.

My surveyor turned me on to the GORILLA GLUE concept.

AMAZING RESULTS two years ago and still hard as a rock.

Will see about posting some photos.

BEST !

RWS

 

[scott1956]

I don't blame you for not wanting to any more effort than absolutely necessary. I would first over drill the holes and see what the condition of the wood shavings that come out are. Are they relatively dry? wet? Mushy brown? etc. Is mushy brown liquid coming out of the holes which would indicate a rotten core.That should guide you into whether or not you have to take on the extra effort to remove and replace the wood.

You may get lucky in that the screws worked themselves out over time due to constant use rather than rotten wood.

Good Advice

 

[scott1956]

Hey Ray,

Lots has been written about the use of GORILLA GLUE in this type of situation.

This product kicks off when it reacts to water.

It NEEDS water to expand and get hard.

Had a similar issue with my swim platform.

My surveyor turned me on to the GORILLA GLUE concept.

AMAZING RESULTS two years ago and still hard as a rock.

Will see about posting some photos.

BEST !

RWS

This one is new to me, can you elaborate? Gorilla instant glue or the wood glue, do you fill the holes and then redrill the pilot holes? Thank you Scott

 

[Maybe A Dancer]

And Ray, THANK YOU AGAIN for all that valuable advice 2 years Ago on that 450 I had under consideration up north.

Here's some photos that show my save.

Surveyor identified the wet areas.

As the GORILLA GLUE cured, water was actually running out of the holes!

Labor intensive but very low materials costs.

I did this all myself after she was delivered from CA to the yard, prior to launch.

BEST !

RWS

 

[Maybe A Dancer]

This one is new to me, can you elaborate? Gorilla instant glue or the wood glue, do you fill the holes and then redrill the pilot holes? Thank you Scott

This product can be injected into damp balsa core.

My survey showed some mild wetness in specific swim platform areas.

I suspect a PM banged it up some while attempting docking, and that's why the bow and stern thrusters were added at great expense.

Anyway, 2 years later that swim platform is ROCK SOLID, and the rub rail fasteners have all been removed and resealed.

Here's another photo.

That's rinse water you see in this shot. The finish is smooth and anti-skid was added to avoid potential ass busting.

BEST !

RWS

 

[Stee6043]

And Ray, THANK YOU AGAIN for all that valuable advice 2 years Ago on that 450 I had under consideration up north.

Here's some photos that show my save.

Surveyor identified the wet areas.

As the GORILLA GLUE cured, water was actually running out of the holes!

Labor intensive but very low materials costs.

I did this all myself after she was delivered from CA to the yard, prior to launch.

BEST !

RWS




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Dang that's a lotta holes in a swim platform!

 

[gmaki]

Yeah, 250 gallons for 180 miles would seem a bit off for diesels. Fuel gauges can be a bit wonky too, of course.

I believe your gen should generally draw less than 1 gallon per hour under load. And its' only drawing from your starboard tank which is bigger than your port tank...

So just an update to this prior topic. I made another run to Catalina this week, so had to fill the tanks before leaving. I put in 207 gallons, which of course means that is roughly what I burned on the last trip (which was about 180 miles due to a side trip). So not quite getting the ~1 mpg I should be.

Also on this trip I had no dinghy on the swim platform, just a 80 lb Takacat on the bow and a 95lb outboard in the cockpit. Once again I could only achieve 2600 max rpm. Cruised at about 16 - 17 knots at about 2230 rpm. We made a bit better speed on the return trip (17 - 18 knots) with a bit of tailwind.

Both crossings could barely have been any smoother with very little wind and zero to slight swells.

With the exception of the entrance to Channel Islands harbor where I suddenly found myself in a trough, looking UP at wave tops in two directions, with the waves breaking only 30 - 40 yards past me but that is another story. But man did that catch me off guard after such a smooth crossing, and having been at the mouth of the harbor several times in the last two years and never seeing anything close to those conditions.

 

[Strecker25]

So just an update to this prior topic. I made another run to Catalina this week, so had to fill the tanks before leaving. I put in 207 gallons, which of course means that is roughly what I burned on the last trip (which was about 180 miles due to a side trip). So not quite getting the ~1 mpg I should be.

Also on this trip I had no dinghy on the swim platform, just a 80 lb Takacat on the bow and a 95lb outboard in the cockpit. Once again I could only achieve 2600 max rpm. Cruised at about 16 - 17 knots at about 2230 rpm. We made a bit better speed on the return trip (17 - 18 knots) with a bit of tailwind.

Both crossings could barely have been any smoother with very little wind and zero to slight swells.

With the exception of the entrance to Channel Islands harbor where I suddenly found myself in a trough, looking UP at wave tops in two directions, with the waves breaking only 30 - 40 yards past me but that is another story. But man did that catch me off guard after such a smooth crossing, and having been at the mouth of the harbor several times in the last two years and never seeing anything close to those conditions.

2600 is pretty low. Did it run up or past 2800 at any point you’ve owned it?

I’d be looking at the props to get proper wot. I’m not sure on your year/HP config but it’s pretty common for ours (2002/410/350HP) to need the props cut. We pulled pitch down to 21.5 and the wot jumped up to 2850 fully loaded.

 

[dtfeld]

2600 WOT is really low, your about 20% over propped as you are currently running the boat. Basically your pumping more fuel into the cylinders than the RPM your getting, this produced much higher cylinder temps/pressures that are really bad for these engines and their longevity. These boats came slightly over propped from the factory, but 2600 is getting pretty low.

If you prop this down to get this boat running at 2800 +25 to 50 RPM with a good clean bottom and fuel/water gear as you noted above, you will get better cruise speeds and better fuel economy. I had my props done at the same place Ryan did. I think we're both down around 21.5" +/- of pitch on 22" 4 blade props.

 

[douglee25]

Interesting concept with the gorilla glue. Never heard of that before.

 

[gmaki]

2600 is pretty low. Did it run up or past 2800 at any point you’ve owned it?

I’d be looking at the props to get proper wot. I’m not sure on your year/HP config but it’s pretty common for ours (2002/410/350HP) to need the props cut. We pulled pitch down to 21.5 and the wot jumped up to 2850 fully loaded.

Yeah it hit 2800 during the Sea Trial which is the confounding part of this whole thing. I have added things to the boat, but I don't think I have added enough weight to affect it that much.

Bottom is cleaned monthly, and the diver says it never gets that dirty between cleanings. My only theory which was thoroughly debunked here already, was that my dingy hanging off the back of the swim platform was part of the problem. But I eliminated that on my last trip and it made no difference.

EDIT: Just rechecked my Survey Sea Trial Comments and it actually hit 2900.

"Vessels engines and transmissions were turned on and tested at slip. All operating gauges and
temperatures were normal and met manufacturers specifications. While underway in Dana Point
Harbor there were signs of an oil leak under port engine bay. All electrical components (Cat
and ZF) responded according, no alarms. The Westerbeke Generator was not operational during
the time of the mechanical survey, further troubleshooting is needed. The steering system was
smooth without faults, vessel turned port to starboard during sea trial, no leaks from helm
area.
Vessel was sea trialed off shore of Dana Point Harbor and achieved 2900 RPMS on both engines.
Cat engines are rated @ 2800 RPMS."

So now I am wondering if I am doing something wrong or have done something wrong since the sea trial. A couple things that come to mind. Should WOT rpm be checked with engine sync on? Should I try it without engine sync? Also I adjusted idle on both engines, is it possible I have somehow limited throttle cable travel by doing so? Grasping I straws I know but it just doesn't seem like adding a few hundred pounds of tools and clothes would make that much of a difference.

 

[Strecker25]

Yeah it hit 2800 during the Sea Trial which is the confounding part of this whole thing. I have added things to the boat, but I don't think I have added enough weight to affect it that much.

Bottom is cleaned monthly, and the diver says it never gets that dirty between cleanings. My only theory which was thoroughly debunked here already, was that my dingy hanging off the back of the swim platform was part of the problem. But I eliminated that on my last trip and it made no difference.

Run them up to WOT no load ( it’s loud, so you might want to do it away from the dock) and make sure they reach the “high idle” stamped on the valve cover. Next, run one of them up to WOT, then the other, while in gear. Take note if one runs up to a different rpm than the other. That will show you if one of them is running out of power before the other and dragging your wot down.

The two tests above will start to troubleshoot whether you have a lack of power on either side.

There are other easy checks - clean the air filter, replace your fuel filters, make sure your throttle is opening all the way to the stop

 

[Carver370]

How are you verifying rpm? Do you have the factory tachs?

Even if they are off, you are off on speed for the rpm quite a bit.

 

[gmaki]

Run them up to WOT no load ( it’s loud, so you might want to do it away from the dock) and make sure they reach the “high idle” stamped on the valve cover. Next, run one of them up to WOT, then the other, while in gear. Take note if one runs up to a different rpm than the other. That will show you if one of them is running out of power before the other and dragging your wot down.

The two tests above will start to troubleshoot whether you have a lack of power on either side.

There are other easy checks - clean the air filter, replace your fuel filters, make sure your throttle is opening all the way to the stop

I will do that. Spending tomorrow on the boat, mostly to watch the lights parade but I will try and run all these tests while I am there.

 

[Strecker25]

I will do that. Spending tomorrow on the boat, mostly to watch the lights parade but I will try and run all these tests while I am there.

Any exhaust smoke? Or noticeable sooting on the transom?

 

[gmaki]

How are you verifying rpm? Do you have the factory tachs?

Even if they are off, you are off on speed for the rpm quite a bit.

I swapped factory tachs to Aetna's and set dip switches per the manual. I am confident they are correct as they roughly matched the idle reading from the factory tachs.

 

[gmaki]

Any exhaust smoke? Or noticeable sooting on the transom?

No soot on the transom. There was an initial small amount of soot that came out when I first started the engines prior to my trip. First time I have seen that but no soot after that.

EDIT: no smoke either. Engines run very clean actually.