Official Cummins 6cta 450C thread

[scooper321]

In case anyone wants to follow along with the seal replacement process, I’m running a thread here:

https://www.sbmar.com/community/topic/leaking-smx-pump/

So my mechanic informed me this week that the pumps from SBMAR are the same pumps as what are on the engines, except for the custom pump shaft. That different shaft has a different keying, and so they use the different (custom SBMAR) impellers. But other than the shaft and the impeller, the pump is exactly the same as the normal pumps. If this is true, it makes switching to the SBMAR pumps a lot less attractive, for it would be the same pump but only one source for impellers. Can anyone confirm or refute that these pumps are the same?

 

[ZZ13]

So my mechanic informed me this week that the pumps from SBMAR are the same pumps as what are on the engines, except for the custom pump shaft. That different shaft has a different keying, and so they use the different (custom SBMAR) impellers. But other than the shaft and the impeller, the pump is exactly the same as the normal pumps. If this is true, it makes switching to the SBMAR pumps a lot less attractive, for it would be the same pump but only one source for impellers. Can anyone confirm or refute that these pumps are the same?

I have no idea. Never torn apart the Sherwood. But Tony writes about it here. You could call and ask them and report back.

https://www.sbmar.com/product/smx-1730-seawater-pump/

 

[Blueone]

The whole point of tony making his own pump was the seal failure issues on the Sherwood.

 

[LMBoat]

I've had both. Running 2 SMX pumps now. Both original Sherwoods leaked, one several times (hence the change). No issues, and the splined shaft makes impeller changes MUCH easier as you don't have to mess with the key/keyway.

 

[ZZ13]

The whole point of tony making his own pump was the seal failure issues on the Sherwood.

I think I have sand in my seal. I can hear it when I turn the shaft. Probably tore the seal up over time. I know why, from a few years ago.

 

[scooper321]

Interesting. So he could have also sourced a better gasket?

 

[my3sons]

1 case of real world comparison.
In the fall of 2014 I had a Sherwood that needed seal replacement. I opted to buy one SMX pump, my thinking was that I would give it a try and see how it went, before plunking down another $750, using the slightly (1 drip of water every so often) leaking Sherwood as a backup. In the spring of '16 I bought the other SMX, canned the leaking sherwood and now carry the "good" Sherwood as a spare when going on long trips.
Like Larry, I also like the impellers better on the SMX. Installation is a breeze, nothing needed to get the impeller installed except some lube, and the material seems to hold up better, and they don't seem to take such a nasty distorted set over the winters as the Sherwood's do.
The SMX pumps have 1931 and 1687 hrs on them at 6 years and 5 years of service respectively. The original Sherwoods had 535 hrs and 10 years (the leaker) and 779 hrs and 11 years on them. The 11 year old Sherwood was fine when I took off.
The Sherwood's were always fresh water. The SMX's have about 800 hrs of salt use, but I'm not sure if that really matters much, like Bill said, sand and dirt are the enemy.
I wouldn't replace 2 good Sherwoods with SMX just because, but if it's time for pumps, I think the SMX has a better Impeller for sure and like I said, the impeller is a lot easier to install.
Just my opinion. Fingers crossed.

 

[scooper321]

1 case of real world comparison.
In the fall of 2014 I had a Sherwood that needed seal replacement. I opted to buy one SMX pump, my thinking was that I would give it a try and see how it went, before plunking down another $750, using the slightly (1 drip of water every so often) leaking Sherwood as a backup. In the spring of '16 I bought the other SMX, canned the leaking sherwood and now carry the "good" Sherwood as a spare when going on long trips.
Like Larry, I also like the impellers better on the SMX. Installation is a breeze, nothing needed to get the impeller installed except some lube, and the material seems to hold up better, and they don't seem to take such a nasty distorted set over the winters as the Sherwood's do.
The SMX pumps have 1931 and 1687 hrs on them at 5 years and 6 years of service respectively. The original Sherwoods had 535 hrs and 10 years (the leaker) and 779 hrs and 11 years on them. The 11 year old Sherwood was fine when I took off.
The Sherwood's were always fresh water. The SMX's have about 800 hrs of salt use, but I'm not sure if that really matters much, like Bill said, sand and dirt are the enemy.
I wouldn't replace 2 good Sherwoods with SMX just because, but if it's time for pumps, I think the SMX has a better Impeller for sure and like I said, the impeller is a lot easier to install.
Just my opinion. Fingers crossed.

Good information! Thanks!

 

[ZZ13]

Doing my two year aftercooler service. This is the old style aftercooler on my port engine. Starboard has a 4 year old big bucks new style. Here are a couple of pictures of my poor mans go/no-go pressure test. This is just after I pulled it off the boat, before disassembly. No leak. Holding pressure.

 

[ZZ13]

I got the upper shaft seal off the smx pump. As you can see the bottom side of it is pretty beat up. Only thing left is to pull out the main housing seal. After that it’s put the new stuff in.

 

[ZZ13]

One last thing in the pump water seal. The concept is a face seal much like the PSS system for your prop shaft. The beat up rubber seal in previous post is spring loaded onto a ceramic disc. You can see the disc in both these pictures. When the shaft turns the pressure of the rubber seal spinning on the ceramic disc keeps the water out. As you could see above my face seal was torn up. Probably from a sandy encounter I had or small pieces of barnacle/oyster shells or both. I am replacing the disc, but not sure I really have to.

These seals should last thousands of hours for you freshwater captains. Us warm weather shallow ICW boaters - not so long.

 

[craigswardmtb]

Curious has anyone switched over to the LF14000NN filter yet. I like the logic of improving oil flow during cold starts. And given our April to November boating season here in CT, we definitely have some cold starts... I'll be giving this filter a try next week as we pull the boat.
https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/south-pacific/sites/cumminsfiltration-empty.bitnamiapp.com.south-pacific/files/PD10021AU LF14000NN Data Sheet - LR_0.pdf
https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/s...t-asia/files/LT36635-Fleetguard-LF14009NN.pdf

EDIT: Disregard. Too bad as it looks like a better filter than the LF9009.

 

[craigswardmtb]

Curious has anyone switched over to the LF14000NN filter yet. I like the logic of improving oil flow during cold starts. And given our April to November boating season here in CT, we definitely have some cold starts... I'll be giving this filter a try next week as we pull the boat.
https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/south-pacific/sites/cumminsfiltration-empty.bitnamiapp.com.south-pacific/files/PD10021AU LF14000NN Data Sheet - LR_0.pdf
https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/s...t-asia/files/LT36635-Fleetguard-LF14009NN.pdf

Disregard. It looks like the thread size is different. 2.25 x 12 on LF9009 vs M95 x 2.5mm for LF14000NN. Some misguided intel on the interweb.....

 

[Blueone]

Disregard. It looks like the thread size is different. 2.25 x 12 on LF9009 vs M95 x 2.5mm for LF14000NN. Some misguided intel on the interweb.....

Surprised they wouldn’t make it compatible with our engines

 

[scooper321]

Surprised they wouldn’t make it compatible with our engines

Ive always been of the mindset that it’s more important to change oil and filters often rather than worrying about “the best” filter. Of course, doing both would be ideal but is the 9009 really a bad filter? IMO, just change it regularly and all should be well.

 

[my3sons]

I don’t use it, but I think the number you’re looking for is LF14009

 

[Blueone]

Disregard. It looks like the thread size is different. 2.25 x 12 on LF9009 vs M95 x 2.5mm for LF14000NN. Some misguided intel on the interweb.....

https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/s...t-asia/files/LT36635-Fleetguard-LF14009NN.pdf

Here they are saying the LF14009NN is an upgrade to the LF9009. Seems it has similar properties as the LF14000NN

https://shop.moderngroup.com/news/upgrade-from-fleetguard-lf9009-to-the-lf14009nn/

It’s also twice the price.... $150 for a couple of filters is a bit steep

 

[my3sons]

I've briefly read about these filters before and never really considered them. They are more of an extended service provider for the otr industry than anything else in my opinion, but some of the bullet points could play into our application. Better filtration certainly is desirable, but how much better is the question. For my boat, personally,
I don't normally come anywhere near the 300 hour oil change interval in a year that Cummins recommends for our engines, the insoluble numbers that I am seeing on my oil reports are well below the acceptable range using the 9009's, and I don't have to worry about cold starts as I run Wolverine pan heaters. My oil is always 120+ degrees. All that said, I guess it would be interesting to see side by side oil analysis of the two filters in the same engine, but as Blue said, at twice the price I'm not sure it will be me. If someone else wants to give them a try, post the results of your tests, I'm all ears.

 

[Blueone]

I am not a believer that we should be changing the oil every year when we are boating 6 months and storing 6 months and putting on between 50 and a 100 hours. I do it but reluctantly.
This new filter is rated for 1,000 hours and removes 72% of particles less than 10 micron. The LF9009 is nothing less then 30 micron I believe.
I could see leaving the new filter in there for two years and maybe just changing the oil once a year..... albeit reluctantly.

 

[craigswardmtb]

https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/s...t-asia/files/LT36635-Fleetguard-LF14009NN.pdf

Here they are saying the LF14009NN is an upgrade to the LF9009. Seems it has similar properties as the LF14000NN

https://shop.moderngroup.com/news/upgrade-from-fleetguard-lf9009-to-the-lf14009nn/

It’s also twice the price.... $150 for a couple of filters is a bit steep

Ahh... Apparently i was misguided. Oh well, i already order my LF9009's for $29 a pop. Maybe next year, i'll try the others.